WoW Discussion

Will Thunderforged Items Help 25 Man Raiding?

Recently, Blizzard announced that coming in 5.2 they would introduce Thunderforged items.  What is a Thunderforged item?  Well its a slight upgrade over the normal or heroic drop.  For example if an item in normal mode drops and is ilvl 522, a Thunderforged version has a chance to also drop of that same item, but with an ilvl of 528 in normal.  In heroics it would be 535 for the regular drop and 541 for the heroic Thunderforged item.  So what does this have to do with 25 man raiding you ask?  Well there is a higher chance of Thunderforged items dropping in 25 mans than in 10 mans.

The whole purpose of this change is that, according to Blizzard, it will provide incentive for players to do 25 man raiding, but the question is will it truly bring back 25 man raiding to a level Blizzard is targeting?


Blizzard has stated that Thunderforged items will give raiders a reason for farming the same content over, in the hopes of getting even more upgrades, better upgrades.  And these Thunderforged items will have a much better chance to drop in 25 mans than in 10 mans.  With 10 mans rarely seeing them.  But that percent drop is important, and while Blizzard hasn’t come out and said what it is, it will still be subjected to RNG (Random Number Generation) that all loot in Warcraft adheres to.  So even if its say a 10% drop chance, you could potentially go 9 weeks in a row without ever seeing it.  As a way to combat bad luck, the game could provide the guild itself a stacking percent that each time a Thunderforged item doesn’t drop it provides a higher chance to drop one on the next boss, until finally one drops the buff resets.  Of course there is also the chance that the same Thunderforged item drops each time you kill a boss, also reducing the effectiveness of the system to urge more to do 25 mans, and instead just frustrate raiders who already struggle with how to cope and gear while at the mercy of the RNG loot system.

This also lends itself to the fact, that about raiders could hold out for the better item?  Many raiders use a DKP system that they would be hesitant to use on non-tier gear if there was a chance they could hold out and get something better, in this case, the Thunderforged version of it.  This argument I have seen thrown out a lot, however I don’t buy into it for the majority of folks.  Why?  Well many top tier raiding guilds use a Loot Council system, where in the interest of beating content faster they just assign loot to those who need it to help them progress faster.  Other guilds like mine, Phalanx of Nod, we use a modified version of Suicide Kings, where holding out, only helps you so much before you are dead even with everyone else anyway, so you are encouraged to take upgrades when you can get them.  However I can see this being an issue for some, especially as previously mentioned in guilds who are subject to a DKP system, where point hording is allowed.  Also, what about Thunderforged items creating an awkward situation for subbing in trial raiders or alts?  Will that not happen anymore unless someone who has the Thunderforged item already is willing to sit?

oondasta-600x350-Thunderforged items also seem to be taking the place for Valor upgrades, with Blizzard saying they are removing the Valor upgrade vendor come patch 5.2, and aren’t sure if it will return in patch 5.3.  This takes gear upgrades out of the hands of players and puts it back into Blizzard’s control via RNG loot distribution.  Is there a better option than Thunderforged, items with a higher ilvl than existing items?  Perhaps, what about dropping a token instead that allows you to use the Valor upgrade vendor to upgrade any current tier item (excluding class tier pieces).  This would allow 25 man raiders a chance to upgrade their gear without spending valor points, and instead using their earned valor points to upgrade their other gear, and ultimately letting them gear up faster than 10 man teams.  Though if we don’t want to drop tokens, you could always drop gear that is already “pre-upgraded” but then you run into, what if you are dropping a piece that someone already has, with the token you provide more flexibility.

So back to the real question, will Thunderforged items help increase the popularity of 25 man raiding?  I personally think it won’t.  It doesn’t go far enough to provide true incentive.  Lets look at a few things I see as roadblocks to bringing back 25 man raids.

  1. Decreased server populations.  Several servers are underpopulated, but many refuse to pay the transfer fee to move, and Blizzard isn’t planning any server consolidations.  Then you have these limited populations spread across several guilds, which brings me to my next point
  2. Too many guilds.  Anyone can create a guild these days, and it spreads the population too thinly in many cases.  Leading some guilds to poach from one another (not a new problem).  Now I know some people are going to say, anyone has the right to make a guild.  I would argue they don’t, and I don’t personally like that its so easy to make one.  If Blizzard imposed caps to how many guilds could exist on a server, or even go as far as auto-disband guilds that don’t do anything with their members collectively, and not just raiding, but dungeons, pvp, etc.  This would make guilds work harder to do things as a guild or you need to go find a guild that is productive and does things with one another.

483019_10151194057802261_1449063098_nBut lets say neither of the 2 points above come to pass.  What other incentive could Blizzard provide to spark more interest in 25 man raiding, without alienating 10 man raid teams?  Perhaps increase the valor points per kill, let 25 man raiders Valor cap just by raiding.  Allow each raid boss in 25 man mode to drop 10 lesser charms, that can be traded in to get the greater charms to improve your bonus loot rules, but let 10 mans maybe get 2-3 charms per kill.  Another item people have been dying for is a way to distinguish 25 man raids from 10 mans, you can do this by changing the gear, without actually changing the gear.  Let me explain, let 25 man bosses, drop bonus Transmog-gear.  This would be a way for raiders in 25 mans to customize their gear in a different way that doesn’t change the ilvl of gear or create a gear disparity between the two raiding options.  People love Transmog gear, and other than more art going into the game, it wouldn’t fundamentally change much.

In my opinion the winning formula to provide more incentive to 25 man raids is to do a combination of the following:

  1. Higher percent chance to drop “gear upgrade tokens” in 25 man raids.  These are tokens that would upgrade your gear at the Valor upgrade vendor, without spending valor, allowing choice over which items to upgrade and when, works with existing gear drops, and lets 25 man raiders gear up faster than 10 man raids.
  2. Drop Transmog gear in 25 man raids only.  Give 25 man raiders a way to distinguish themselves from the rest of the pack.
  3. Increase Valor point drops in 25 man raids, allow 25 man raiders to Valor cap, if they clear the current tier of raiding in a week.
  4. Add Lesser Charms to both 25 man and 10 man raids, have lesser charms be higher in 25 man raids than 10 mans.

What do you think?  What are some other alternatives to the system Blizzard is looking to put in place?



20 Comments on Will Thunderforged Items Help 25 Man Raiding?

  1. Anon

    TF won’t work.

    Especially when its only a SLIGHT increase to drop in 25s instead of 10s…but rare in BOTH.

    And the upgrade vendors are (currently) planned to return in 5.3

    TF will work great as a way to beat the BiS syndrome. As a way to fix 10v25….complete failure. But it is obviously not meant to be a solution

  2. Anonymous

    I know that this wasn’t the point of your article, but I definitely have beef with your opinion about “Too many guilds”. Sure, its a problem for raiding guilds that are competing to attract more members and does stretch the population thinner, but have you ever actually sat down and thought about, “Why do all these guilds exist?” If you did give it some thought and talked to players in those guilds, then you’d know there are so many different reasons for it. A lot of which aren’t really disputable.

    I think your comment, “even go as far as auto-disband guilds that don’t do anything with their members collectively” is ignorant of other players around you. Instead of sitting in your bubble, maybe you should take into consideration that a SINGLE PLAYER is capable of doing more Guild Activity than the top 3 people in an “active” guild on a week-to-week basis by questing … which others in the guild could easily join in on and I would welcome. My main for this expansion has a Lifetime Guild Activity of 980 million (as of today) and could’ve (and did) solo-level a guild. I choose to play solo because other players slow me down and waste time with AFKs or non-sense. With more guild activity between my main and alts than many existing guilds, including active raiding guilds, I feel I am more than entitled to those same perks. Last week, I completed 105 million guild activity collectively between my main and alts (without multi-boxing), but only played for 22 hours. How many guilds would fall within your definition of not getting auto-disbanded while my guild would be disbanded … because I don’t do group activities as much?

    The point is, before you knock on guilds and state they should be “auto-disbanded” or shouldn’t exist since they don’t meet your definition of one, you should at least acknowledge WHY they’re there and WHAT they do. Sure, a guild that hasn’t had a single person log on in 6 months probably doesn’t need to be around. A guild with 3 people in it that exists solely because they don’t like the alternatives doesn’t deserve to be penalized or have perks and rewards withheld because you don’t agree with their existence. That’s just silly.

    • Ceraphus

      Well Anonymous, I don’t discount your level of activity. But a guild by definition is a group of people. If you play it solo and say the only one in your guild, that doesn’t necessarily fall under my point. My issue is guilds that are created and are either not active (due to people not being around). Or guilds that just don’t do anything flat out together. No dungeons, no pvp, no raiding, not even questing.

      I would argue that if you want to play the game solo that you shouldn’t have the same perks as people who band together to tackle content together, being in a guild should be something special, not something you are entitled to. But that is my opinion.

      I think that having a mandate that your guildmates collectively do stuff builds community, which ultimately grows a guild. But instead we have every person just create a guild get a few folks try to raid or pvp, this causes unrest especially at lower pop servers, and causes many 25 man guilds to drop to 10s. My solution is an alternative, and a measuring stick that says active guilds are encouraged, but if you aren’t active and doing stuff as a community what is the point, and go find a community that does mesh with your mindset. And of course if there is a guild with 3 people in it, who are active and do stuff together no they shouldn’t be penalized. But a guild that grabs 20 people, who never organize and do anything those are the groups that may not be helping the situation when 18 of those folks could have found a guild that met their playstyle and maybe helped with 25 man raiding.

      If a guild participation doesn’t exist, why even have a guild, because you don’t like the other options, which was what, sitting by yourself in a guild chat? That’s just silly, in my opinion.

  3. Anonymous

    Well, you’re entitled to your opinion, but I frankly think you’re wrong and close-minded to believe that someone shouldn’t be able to have the same perks or rewards as others because they want to play solo. If we look at the perks and rewards, why should a group be solely entitled to them if a single player can do the same thing? Granted, they won’t be able to get every reward because it requires a “guild group”, which in essences preserves those “special” things you’re seeking. If a single player can maximize every profession, complete 15,000 dailies, murder 50,000 critters, or even level 1 of every single race/class to 85+, are they any less qualified than a guild to have those rewards? The message your sending by stating they should have their guilds auto-disbanded is that they don’t deserve it.

    You talk about building a community, but a community also consists of people that stay to themselves and quietly do their own thing. The fact that they have to interact with others, whether it be by trades, auction house, random groups and pugs, or running through an area and helping kill a random mob means they’re part of the community. Your solution is to disrupt the atmosphere they built for themselves and take away the achievements, rewards, and perks they can get without you. A true introvert doesn’t enjoy the company of others regularly and thrives in solidarity. That person’s interaction with the community brings more gains since they’ve been able to thrive than had they gone completely casual or decided they no longer wanted to play. In my perspective, having 600 people in a guild who you barely know or talk to is silly … and trying to force the individuals into guilds they don’t want to be a part of is passed the point of silly to flat out absurd.

    If you really want to solve the problem of 25-man guilds disappearing, then disbanding a players “home” is not the way to do it. There is still no desire for them to actually JOIN the 25-man guilds and that’s the root cause of the growing problem. As a former 25-man guild leader, I never had a problem with keeping a full roster or progressing and that’s because I addressed the issue head-on, not try to get everyone to fit into a prepackaged box with a label on it. When they changed the loot system in Cataclysm to reward 10 and 25-man equally, it didn’t hurt my guild’s progress or roster. What led to its demise was that I simply grew tired of carrying the torch and holding everything together … so in my absence, the guild decided to part ways and not carry the torch themselves. Sure, the loot change didn’t make it easier, but the survivability of the 25-man guild ultimately falls down to the leadership to create an atmosphere where people WANT to be a part of. That’s the problem.

    Try remarketing your “brand” and guild in a manner that people will want to be a part of and see the positives in joining. People didn’t join MySpace because they had to, but because they wanted to be a part of it. It died because it failed to stay fresh and provide reasons for people to stay involved. People join Facebook because they stay inventive and fresh. You may not like every change or some of the things they do, but they are continuously adapting to stay ahead of the curve. Blizzard makes changes that can hurt (or help in the case of Thunderforged drop-rates), but it still falls down to the guild’s leadership to market their “product” effectively if they want to survive. Prior to Cataclysm, there was no need to market a 25-man guild because they were superior simply due to the gear and bonus items. The top perks to a 25-man guild are the amount of loot that gets cycled through, stability of a well-organized roster, and flexibility in class/specs. If a 25-man roster can gear up players faster, allow them to play what they want, and never have to worry about if they’ll get to raid, then how is a 10-man guild better? I don’t even see 25-man guilds mention these points when they try to entice new players to join because they seem to actually believe 10-man raiding is better (and its not). How many people do you know are sitting on rosters not raiding or playing a class/spec they don’t prefer, when they’d rather be raiding with their favorite toon? There are enough to fill most of the 25-man guilds that have disbanded due to “lack of players”. Until [potential] 25-man guild leaders get out of the funk of believing the 10-man guild superiority, 25-man guilds will continue to struggle.

    • Ceraphus

      If anyone could have the same perks as a guild, what makes a guild special then? I am not saying that solo play shouldn’t be rewarding, it should, but in different ways from guild rewards. My only thing is I feel that guilds spring up too quickly and many times pull people in too many directions. I just want to see Blizz reward guilds for being active, in doing activities with one another, and not just a place where people just login and don’t talk to one another.

      I understand all too well that to keep people interested you need to keep things fresh, I have been the GM of my guild for over 8 years! We constantly adapt and change to the landscape, from 40 mans to 10/25 mans to 10s, to 25s, and back and forth. One thing we always do is plan activities together, we will run LFR, do PVP, dailies, quest together, because that is what we feel a guild community should be. And I understand many guild communities are different, but what they should have in common is a sense of comradery. That should mean something and not trivialize what guilds are, which I feel many guilds today are built for the wrong reasons.

      Now we only focused on 1 small portion of my argument, the fact is Blizzard needs to make 25s more appealing, Thunderforged items are not that answer, they are a step but don’t go far enough.

  4. Anonymous

    What makes a guild special is success. Success is defined by the group accomplishing things together that other groups cannot do or doing it faster than other groups have. In reviewing Phalanx of Nod on the Dalaran server, I have noticed that your guild has had limited success in PvE Raiding (#25,514 in T14 and highest at #15,215 in T8). It also has not had near the success as the guild I ran (#917 in T11), the worst guild I raided with (#1164 in T12), or the best guild I raided with (#10 in T8), so I shouldn’t expect you to understand that success is special and the only “special” that a guild needs.

    Instead, existing … particularly existing for 8 years … is what you’ve pegged as making a guild “special” by stating that the guilds that don’t meet your expectations should be auto-disbanded. Truly, its nice to know that a guild has existed for 8 years. My girlfriend was in one of those before … and sadly, its just a hollowed shell of its former self. The only raiding member of its Realm First group that is still in the guild is a former officer that logs on once every 2-3 months. The guild literally lives on, clinging to a storied history, which frankly no one even remembers or cares about 3 years later.

    Now, you’ve stated what makes you a credible source of opinion on the 25-man raiding problems is your experience, but I say that you haven’t even made it out of the bottom quartile of success and that existence is not the same as experience. I also am slightly curious about your claim of being “the GM of my guild for over 8 years!” when your characters joined Phalanx of Nod from Heart of Redemption in July of 2008. I am curious as to how or what happened for such a discrepancy to occur in your character history. Would you care to enlighten your readers?

    Finally, I’m still curious as to what would justify a group of players being more entitled to a perk or reward given that a single character has solo’d more content and has produced more Lifetime Guild Activity than the top 4 players in your guild. Last week, a single player produced more Weekly Guild Activity than your entire guild combined. If a single player can solo that much in 22 hours because of their dedication and focus to achieving something, yet you still believe they aren’t deserving of the same perks and rewards, then maybe you should be addressing HOW the perks and rewards are given instead of stating that their guild shouldn’t exist.

    By the way, Blizzard states that a guild is 5 accounts that have signed a charter and paid the start-up costs associated with creating the guild. With 5 accounts in my guild and 8 gold capped characters, I’m more than qualified to run my “guild community” any way I see fit, regardless of your opinion. Also, to sum up your entire blog perspective on 25-man guilds disappearing … its their leadership’s ability to properly organize and market their brand to others in a way that is appealing to others. 25-man guilds aren’t hard to market when they’re actually successful. I would work on that #25,514 or realm #44 and maybe perspective members may decide to join … and a “rebrand” of your guild might help, as players will typically avoid joining guilds that have grown a reputation as being substandard with an entrenched leader.

    • Ceraphus

      yeah for 10 man we may not be super progressed, but I don’t classify that is success. Our success is we have people have fun consistently week in and week out. Try to flip that over to 25 man raiding, and you will see we are 4th currently in 25 man, which we recently switched over due to recruitment. But as we recruit we tell folks, we arennt interested in realm firsts, we progress at our pace, the important thing for us is that we have fun, and we have been doing that for 8 years.

      As for the Heart of Redemption, sure at a point, when many of our players wanted more hardcore progression, we switched some toons over to that guild for a while to focus on raiding. BUT, we all kept our alts/other toons in PoN which we played, and were only in HoR for raiding, and soon found that we missed the raiding atmosphere we had which was more lax, and fun loving, so we moved our raiding toons back. So in vanilla we went from casual > raiding, then in BC we went from raiding > alt/non-raiding guild (which I remained the GM of), and then end of BC we came back together and haven’t changed a thing, and while our numbers have gone up and down our core philosophy has never changed.

      In your example you are basically saying guilds don’t deserve special treatment over solo players, which I will disagree with you on, no matter what you say, guilds are important to this game, active guilds with solid communities are important and they deserve special kudos for doing things together, leveling together, that a player not in a guild shouldn’t have access to unless they join a guild. This goes in part to 25 man raiding, if Blizz wants people to come back to it, they have to make it worthwhile, the logistics involved are much harder to coordinate.

      If your “guild community” is active, and does stuff with one another, I have no problem how its run. I just personally feel many guilds are shadows of what they used to be in Vanilla, BC and Wrath, and this was before perks. And it used to be 10 people to create a guild, I never liked the lowering it to 5. I just rather see guilds rewarded for members doing things together, and it doesn’t have to just involve raiding, like I have said.

      As for our guild ranking we don’t have a problem with recruiting. We offer something that many other guilds don’t have, and my post here isn’t meant to say woe is me we can’t do 25s, we can, and we have been. The issue I take, is what Blizz is doing is not compelling enough to have people flock back to it. Feel free to flip over and look at our 25 man ranking its 2706, and we are 1 of 4 guilds on our server even doing 25 man content. But like I said our progression isn’t what has attracted members, its our community, which we value more than progression. Progression isn’t everything. Some people feel it is, but in PoN community is more highly coveted.

  5. Anonymous

    Keep in mind that there are only 3654 guilds that have completed a single boss on 25-man. As a guild, you guys are in the 36th percentile of all guilds at the present moment. As a 25-man guild, you’re in the 26th percentile and 4th of 4 on your realm. Your guild standing is better as an overall guild than as a 25-man guild. With how late in the expansion it is, your 25-man won’t exceed your overall standing before 5.2 is released.

    As far as offering rewards or perks to guilds for doing stuff, they would completely need to refocus guild perks and rewards to be tied to group activities instead of on anything that can be done solo, like questing, professions, reputations, etc. In that case, an individual would only have to multibox 3 accounts to meet the minimum standard for a “guild group” for dungeons and scenarios (which there are many that do). Blizzard’s position on multiboxing is not to have a position and enforce the current ToU. The ToU doesn’t forbid multiboxing. Even if they made things unsoloable, all I would do is multibox my account with my sister’s and girlfriend’s and triple my current guild activity. There is an easy way around almost every rule change of that manner that still doesn’t address the root cause of the problem.

    The fact is, the people in the groups you’d auto-disband don’t want to be in others guilds, so eliminating their guilds doesn’t encourage them to participate. Sticking to ideas that promote involvement instead of taking away perks and rewards that exist is the only way entice people to want to do anything different. People frown on nerfs or negative changes, they get frustrated, and they quit over them. A change like your suggesting to address “too many guilds” is not a feasible solution to build the subscription base and would hurt it. Tightening their requirements on guild creation would only slightly help, while offering increased loot drop chances for larger guilds will help shift 10-man guilds to 25-man guilds.

    The funny thing is looking at the complaints about 10-man raiding. The loot selection sucks. They disenchant a lot of gear that can’t be used. People complain about raid comps or having to play class/specs they don’t want to play. People still want to raid 25-man and there are actually a lot of people that frown on and are disappointed in 10-man raiding. I am one of those people. In my opinion, if its not 25-man, its not the same thing … no matter how Blizzard, GuildOx, WoWProgress, or any other group deems it. The problem is that people don’t see 25-man as a solution, even though they don’t have many of the same problems 10-man guilds have. There’s just no incentive to create and run the larger group from a leadership standpoint, so people don’t lead the groups.

    • Ceraphus

      The fact is as I have repeated, we don’t care about being “ranked” for progression, our community and guild culture is one that we progress on our own schedule and we enjoy just playing the game with one another, thats our culture & the reason for our longevity. But the important item for our guild is that we do like doing things together, questing, raiding, dungeons, pvp, etc. Also our guild does 25s because we prefer not to sit people, not due to more loot or prestige, we like to include people as much as possible.

      You keep going back to this auto-disband thing I said in passing, and I would only be so harsh (if I worked at Blizzard) for inactive guilds that do nothing together. I also feel that guilds should be rewarded and have special perks for doing things as a collective vs guilds with just 1 member in them, I have a bank alt that has a guild, using just the guild bank, and no I don’t feel that character deserves the same level of rewards that my other characters do.

      Our back and forth has only shown 1 thing we are both stubborn and have our own ideas, so at this point you won’t change your mindset and I won’t change mine.

  6. So, I am going to first essentially negate EVERYTHING this commentator has stated by simply saying…How can you tout all your statistics and progress under the guise of ANONYMOUS? If you are so proud of what your accomplishments are, then add a name to said accomplishments. You seem so eager to disprove Ceraphus on his statements by researching his background and credentials while offering no direct ability to validate or refute your personal claims.

    Heres the primary thing I think you are missing about World of Warcraft….its an MMO. Its a social game. Its not a single player hack n slash. If that’s what you want, go play D3. Guilds absolutely should have perks above non-guilded players. And while Blizzard has a vested interest in ensuring a sense of inclusion, there is nothing wrong with offering greater rewards for more difficult encounters and challenges to overcome. Simply put, offering 25man raiding more rewards is a proven method of encouraging 25 man raids! Its not a necessity to play the game, but an option for those willing to make the sacrifices to achieve that common goal.

    Additionally, at now point has PoN ever stated it is a progression guild or that it has the mindset to be one. How dare you stomp all over and attempt to squash PoN’s sense of accomplishment of having been around for as long as it has. Basically, you just looked at someone else’s kid who won 3rd place pointed at the kid that one 1st place and said to the parent, “Your kid sucks. He wasn’t as good as this kid was” Well, point blank, fuck off! Its not up to you to determine someone else’s measure of success. If the GM of a guild and the members of said guild feel they accomplished their goals and did what they have set out to do…you have no right nor basis to dispute that. No one does.

    You cannot attack with your sword of “You aren’t successful because you ahven’t done as much as these people have” then shield yourself with your “I don’t need to be in a guild with others, I can do more on my own and deserve every perk for doing it solo”. Bullshit. Part of the point of having a greater reward is having overcome the challenge of getting a group of disparate people to work together towards a common goal!

    If you do not get that, then simply put: You missed the whole ever-loving point of an MMORPG.

    Quori´s last blog post ..Geekslap Contest!

    • Who cares if my name is Anonymous

      Ceraphus, understand that everything you say, even then small things, have meaning behind them. Sure, you made of said it “in passing”, but the fact that you said it and had it ever been something that Blizzard would consider, it would impact a lot of people. Solving a problem should be approached from a top-down view, considering all of the impacts any changes could make to other things, not just the initial problem being addressed. It should also address the root cause, not symptoms. I person with the flu that treats the fever still has the flu even without the fever. The problem isn’t actually getting addressed. Until there is a way to reward the people for using their personal time and effort for running the larger guilds and those people make 25-mans enticing to others, people will continue to revert to the “easier way” of doing things by running and raiding in 10-mans.

      Quori, trying to state all the information is negated because I don’t want to share my identity with anyone that happens across this page means you’re simple minded. Anonymous clearly means I would rather not share my identity with anyone and everyone … especially when I don’t even know you. It doesn’t negate statistics or fact. Obviously reverting to the petty argument, “your argument doesn’t matter because I don’t want it to,” just proves that you’re unable to logically support your point-of-view and you had weak arguments in the first place. I’m not going to waste my time discussing anything or reading the rest of your post if that’s the type of mentality I’m dealing with. If you truly want to discuss something, actually offer sometime with substance or counter my points with something meaningful. By the way, you obviously didn’t read most of what I posted since you’re not even close to hitting what I said correctly.

  7. Lunastriker

    25-man guilds die because the natural incentives to do more were removed in Cata and 10-man guilds had benefited most by leveling the playing field. The benefit increase was so great, that even 25-man guilds forgot why they were better than 10-man guilds. At the same time, they made guilds easier to create, gave bonuses for PUGs to band together as guilds, and added another option to make grouping together unnecessary with LFD and LFR. 25-man Guild Leaders and Officers are faced with the difficult choice to continuously manage a larger roster or drop to 10-man. Obviously, 10-man guilds are easier to lead and why we dropped our guild to 10-man.

    Reading some of the comments, Anonymous had a valid point, though. After giving players perks and rewards, to take them away for whatever reason would be a penalty, not a reward for people that met a group-based criteria. Instead, they should reconsider future perks and rewards to require them to be group-only obtainable. It was a mistake on Blizzard’s part, but would alienate a large group of players to take away what they’ve been given already.

    I also read Quori’s comment bashing the Anonymous poster. I don’t intend to be mean, but it seems that he’s truly butthurt about the person’s claims and opinions. Maybe its just me, but I didn’t think Anonymous was trying to be mean with their comments, but trying to offer a background to state why their opinions differed. I know the Anonymous person said they don’t care what Quori had to say and that arguing a point by negating everything they said is simple minded. It is. Quori also has a point on Anonymous possibly stating false data. Since I am familiar with API and JSON, I did a search and cross-referenced it with WoWProgress to see if this person could even exist. I found only 1 character that could possibly match the person posting, but the fact that I could even verify that a single person existed is a really good coincidence, someone has done a great job of stalking, or the person is legit.

    Now, I’m not in the position of violating the person’s privacy because I wouldn’t like my own violated, but they did give some information that can be verified. In Tier 8, the World #10 guild was Fusion, which disbanded at the beginning of Cata. In Tier 11, the World #917 guild was Insight, which appears to have peaked in T11 and had a mass-exodus after the first week of Firelands. In Tier 12, the World #1164 guild was Regen, which appears to have disbanded at the start of MoP. Using, I was able to find exactly who the person was. While I can’t say that Anonymous is actually the person they’re claiming to be, I can say that the person exists. If they feel like sharing who they are, that’s up to them to share or for you to do the armory search for Guild Activity, track the character, then verify the claims.

    • Ceraphus

      I am not saying take away necessarily, I was saying if people are in a guild but don’t do anything with one another, then whats the point in being in a guild. As Quori said it is a MMO, and community is one of the reasons I believe WoW has lasted as long as it has. Now I agree much better incentives should be provided not just to guilds, but to 25 man raiding in order to draw more interest. I agree you can’t take away perks people already have, but auto-disbanding a guild that doesn’t do anything. I would like to see a more vibrant community driven player base once more. And blizzard needs to incentivize that behavior, in my opinion.

  8. No, I am not simple minded, I am making a simple argument so your bass-ackwards brain can understand it. You are pointing at statistics that speak to a person’s character without allowing a cross examination of your character. It goes to the validity of your ability to even speak the truth. You stated many facts about your own contributions and state how glorious your own accomplishments are compared to anyone else’s….yet none of this can be proven. The mere fact that Cer has a guild mate willing to stand up and defend him speaks volumes to HIS character.

    You can go ahead and claim you don’t want to waste your time with me…but thats because you have no foundation to stand on here. You claim how to solve a problem…how many game titles have you launched? Do you have a blog which you have helped educate the community through? What guild have you played in for 8 years? Will anyone attest to your character and stand up for you?

    Your example of treating the fever but not the flu is in and of itself poor to say the least. The flu is a virus. Nothing can be done to treat a virus and cure it with the exception of the body’s own immune system fighting it off. The fact is the fever is the most dangerous part of the symptoms experienced and SHOULD be the most paramount thing to treat. Anyone with common sense would tell you: drink fluids, keep the fever down, get rest. NONE of which treats the actual disease, but all the symptoms.

    I wouldn’t expect you to think this way, because you lack common sense. Your other arguments illustrated perfectly your lack of intelligence, this just sealed the deal. Carry on though with any argument, point, or illogical fallacy you see fit to throw up here. Reality is by your own acknowledgment you are a guild of one. Playing a social game by yourself. Cer is in a guild of many, playing along side folks who support him in game and in real life.

    Congratulations on your victory of utter solitude. You win.
    quori´s last blog post ..Geekslap Contest!

  9. Lunastriker

    That’s the thing, Quori, an anonymous person doesn’t have to share their identity. When a blogger offers their character information on a regular basis, they’re asking to have their character examined. I honestly checked both Phalanx of Nod and Ceraphis on the armory to see their experience and if the anonymous person was correct. The character name and guild were provided on other blogs already, so there wasn’t much “research” required. Searching for the anonymous person did require a lot of research because they didn’t offer the basics to start from, but it didn’t make it completely impossible since they did offer information to search from. I’m not going to get in a fight with you for them, but if the person is who they’re claiming to be, then there isn’t much to cross-examine since it would all be true.

    Also, and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think the person ever questioned the character of Ceraphis. Your posts seem to be highly defensive and like you’re an asshole. Their example of the flu was slightly fitting since influenza CAN be treated through antibiotics. If it couldn’t be treated, there wouldn’t be a flu shot. It seems the only person attacking anyone’s character is you. Again, I don’t want to be part of your squabbling. I just happened across the blog as a 3rd-party who was looking for more information on Thunderforged items.

    Ceraphis, I can’t assume to know the logic behind the anonymous person, but I think they’re stating that your suggestion of disbanding guilds is taking away perks and rewards that they did earn legitimately through the current requirements. Who are you, Quori, or I to say they don’t deserve them when Blizzard has stated that this was a legitimate way to get them?

    • Ceraphus

      I really don’t want this comment thread to degenerate anymore as I am more hoping for a discussion on thunderforged items in general. So while I understand Anonymous’s point about earning those guild perks through solo play, thats not necessarily the problem I have. If you look at the Dalaran server there are so many guilds that stretch a small player base even more, which limits the ability to do 25s, but there isn’t much incentive to do 25s so why get in larger guilds to do them? So my point is if a guild is just there and doesn’t do anything with their members ever, then why do they exist, maybe those members can find other homes if properly incentivized, say if 25 man raiding had some extra carrots.

      As for guilds they should add extra perks for those guilds that do a lot more with their members, provide them a boost, or rewards congratulating them on building a strong player community, and in turn, it could prove as a valuable means to recruit new members, because new recruits will say, hey look that guild is really active they have the perks that say they do tons of stuff together, thats the community I want to be part of. This could then improve guild membership numbers, and the possibility of doing 25s, by which hopefully are more incentivized than just thunderforged items dropping based on RNG a bit more than in 10 mans.

    • I'm anonymous and you're mad

      LOL, Quori is butthurt. That’s pretty fitting because he does seem so. Its funny that you have to act like your protecting Ceraphis. I’m sure he really needs someone acting like an idiot to protect him. All you’ve tried to do is attack my character and make insults, but you want me to share more information about me. Why would I willingly walk into a pissing match with an idiot? Not only would you piss all over yourself, but you’d piss all over me, Ceraphis’ blog, whoever the first Anon was, Luna, and anyone else that happens to pass through. None of us really want to see you look any more stupid.

      I’m not sure if its more pathetic that an “8-year player” has actually done nothing notable besides existing or that you’re acting like you’re even remotely making sense with your babble. Who cares if you’ve launched 900 games, you’ve mostly given the impression you suck at all of them. Its funny how you go ranting on the flu and fever example, when it was just an example of treating part of a problem and not treating the underlying issue. The underlying issue is that you should’ve got a freaking vaccination (and if you really want to dispute that, learn to read and do some research:

      Oh, and Quori, I’m so proud of you for your raiding, arena, and bgs success. I mean, you’re so pro, I just don’t know what to do with myself. Wait, sorry, maybe I should be serious and not boost your ego. You also seem to be confusing soloing with solitude. While you’re dependent on a guild to have friends, my RealID list is full of winners … and I do stuff with them when I feel like it. My choice to solo in my own guild is a choice … not a forced solitude, like you seem to be confused with. You humor me.

      • So again you go with your same argument here as above which amounts to: “I am awesome and superior, and you all suck and are pathetic.” Sorry you do not see that, or perhaps you do. Its your way of making yourself feel better perhaps? Knock someone else down a few pegs to increase your sense of self worth?

        A couple points to you and others here. Ceraphus does not need me to defend him, but I am assuredly standing along side my friend and guild-mate. You attacked PoN, and as a proud member of the guild I will defend it. Its not some be all end all world ranked guild. Its never tried to be that nor made claims to be that. Its a social family of like minded folks. Attacking one of us means attacking all of us, as far as I am concerned. Additionally, I am not “butt hurt”…I do not think you understand what that actually is compared to drawing the ire of a person’s friend or their guild down upon you. I am not jealous of the accomplishments other folks have. If you have the time and energy to focus your attention on whatever your in-game accomplishments are then by all means have at it and enjoy yourself. Those days are gone for me and I have other things in game or out that garner my attention. That does not make me jealous or hurt…it makes me indifferent to how accomplished you feel yourself to be. Lastly, getting a vaccination for a virus does not prevent the virus. Educate yourself. It doesn’t prevent you getting the flu, nor does it treat the actual flu once you do have it. The phrase that applies here for the anonymous poster is “U mad bro?” Because you sound it. You sound disgruntled. At Ceraphus? At Phalanx of Nod perhaps? You seem to have a hair across your ass specific to this guild and its GM, because you haven’t made one argument against the post or its ideas…only that you are so awesomely superior to Ceraphus and the guild.

        Cer, as for your post, you have some great points. But I always caution that Blizzard will not do something that is more exclusive than inclusive. They really have tried to get away from that approach for better or worse. That said, people in dead guilds should feel free to leave tham and seek out new homes that suit their playing needs. I would think more incentives around that should be in place. No idea what those could be though.
        Quori´s last blog post ..Geekslap Contest!

  10. Alissa

    I think that any incentive that Blizzard offers towards 25-man raiding is a sign that they are looking to rebuild the MMO community. 25-man raiding was one of the primary reasons that World of Warcraft was so successful. I also think there are a few other problems that have helped contribute, but having too many guilds isn’t it. Overall, World of Warcraft still has 9.6 million subscribers, which is roughly 25% of their current population. This would definitely mean there was a massive drop in players, but not to the extent that people think. Many of the players have migrated continuously from server to server and in some cases, built massive single servers, like Illidan and Mal’Ganis. If anything, I believe it has to do more with the loss of interest players have had with the excessively long tier lengths, lack of raid bosses on a few tiers, and the fluidity of players between factions and servers that has weakened ties players had with their guilds and servers that encouraged them to log on. Also, players would typically play their main for 25-man and 10-man. Shared lockouts actually seems to have had more impact on the older raiders, with a lot of them gradually fading off as they found “a real life” when they would’ve typically been raiding in 10-man groups. Increasing the speed new content is released will keep the game feeling fresher, but the dynamic changes they continuously make with currency, gear, class mechanics, talents, glyphs, and any other thing that temporarily sparks their interest is actually a turn off.

    • Interestingly there is a massive drop off from the amount of players pushing latest/greatest content and the next tier of players who make up the majority and progress rather slowly in comparison. One of the adverse effects I think speed of content has is that it trivializes harder content for slower progressing guilds.

      PoN is a good example of this. We pushed through MV up to Elegon and then skipped past Elegon and WotE to go to HoF. The difficulty of the last 2 bosses gave more incentive to jump over to the next raid zone of content. While yes we went back it could be argued its best to finish one entire zone before jumping to the next. I wonder how many guilds have done this over all?

      Blizz has always done a great job of manage by fact. They make decisions based on data they have about usage and content consumption. So while we can trust they are making the right decisions based on historical success, we may not necessarily see the value in it short term.

      End of day, I trust them it will work out long haul.
      Quori´s last blog post ..Geekslap Contest!

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